tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3471471289744825428.post5261735001060948804..comments2024-03-11T00:31:41.186-07:00Comments on The Oregon Economics Blog: Studded Tires, Biking and Pigovian TaxesPatrick Emersonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17242234148546323374noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3471471289744825428.post-38985811041522714992010-05-04T18:45:21.163-07:002010-05-04T18:45:21.163-07:00Bill,
When I said "squarely" what I mea...Bill,<br /><br />When I said "squarely" what I meant to say was a direct relationship to the fee a user pays and the service provided. My apologies for being brief. There is no direct correlation with a bicyclist (or a motorist) on any of the other fees. The other fees are voluntary. You are correct, many motorists, do not pay the parking fees either. I also believe parking fees collected should only be used to maintain or grow the infrastructure as required for parking facilities and parking enforcement.<br /><br />As to the other fees, we can discuss the $20 million theft the sewer fund some other time. :)Ralphhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935553689879498648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3471471289744825428.post-36429013939098457342010-05-04T17:14:37.078-07:002010-05-04T17:14:37.078-07:00Ralph: You're wrong to say that the general fu...Ralph: You're wrong to say that the general fund portion is the "only chunk ... placed squarely on a bicycle user". You think bicyclists are somehow avoiding water and sewer charges, Tri-met fares, building permit fees, etc.?<br /><br />Your argument can cut the other way also: many motorists won't pay a dime of the $18M parking revenue. Even the $49M "gas tax" figure includes weight-mile taxes levied on the trucking industry, so it's not squarely on the back of auto commuters.<br /><br />One more minor point: I think you misread the general-fund section. It doesn't say that the general fund contribution will be reduced to $4M. There is some bureaucratese about various sums, but I read nothing that says the $6M in the upper box will be reduced. So the general fund contribution isn't 2.3%, it's 3.4%, compared to the 28% gas-tax contribution.Bill Nighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09202318621724165312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3471471289744825428.post-84252074843914841202010-05-04T11:28:21.371-07:002010-05-04T11:28:21.371-07:00Bill,
Interesting rundown for the city of Portlan...Bill,<br /><br />Interesting rundown for the city of Portland, but I'm sure you noticed the the only chunk in that entire list that could be placed squarely on a bicycle user who does not own a car is a portion of $6M (which by the document has now been reduced to $4M a year) from the general fund which is shared by every resident, bicyclist or not. The rest of that comes from gas taxes, parking fees, grants, and contracts the city has with people who require traffic changes and road repair as part of their doing business (construction, TriMet, water/sewer, etc).<br /><br />So 2.3% of Portland's Department of Transportation's budget comes from the general fund into which all residents pay.Ralphhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935553689879498648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3471471289744825428.post-37149756462988758862010-05-04T09:46:32.060-07:002010-05-04T09:46:32.060-07:00@Patrick: I didn't mean to sound too critical....@Patrick: I didn't mean to sound too critical. It's just that there is a widespread belief that the gas tax pays for every square inch of every road, and thus that bicyclists are "subsidized" by motorists. In this sound-bite age, words are important.<br /><br />@Ralph: I'm not an expert in this area, so the best I can do is point to <a href="http://www.portlandonline.com/transportation/index.cfm?a=95525&c=47376" rel="nofollow">this Revenue Sources document</a> from the Portland DOT. $67M from vehicle fees and taxes; $109M from various other fees and taxes. Granted, some of those fees are development or business fees that it was a stretch for me to say "everyone" pays into. But it does illustrate that bicycle infrastructure is not taking money out of the pockets of people who want to drive a car everywhere, as you hear from a lot of anti-bicycling crybabies.Bill Nighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09202318621724165312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3471471289744825428.post-1780531242731572832010-05-04T08:38:41.039-07:002010-05-04T08:38:41.039-07:00Bill,
I take exception to your assertion. I don&...Bill,<br /><br />I take exception to your assertion. I don't subscribe to any relative comparison, but I can understand the sensitivity of the issue - in Portland particularly. As you mention, we subsidize car driving as well. I don't think of either as freeloaders. I also didn't mean to say that we should subsidize biking and we are already doing <i>enough</i>. I think we could do a lot more given the size and nature of the social benefit.<br /><br />I think that using the term 'subsidy' was perhaps too loaded. My point was that it is entirely appropriate for society to encourage biking due to the positive externalities much the same way it is appropriate to discourage things that have a negative externality, that is all. <br /><br />Now, off I go to ride the Springwater trail downtown...Patrick Emersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17242234148546323374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3471471289744825428.post-53130828249889770862010-05-03T20:37:28.918-07:002010-05-03T20:37:28.918-07:00Firstly, most bicyclists also have cars and pay th...<i>Firstly, most bicyclists also have cars and pay those road-related taxes and fees;</i><br /><br />Apples and oranges. This is the laziest argument that gets made over and over again. Your car is not your bicycle. You choose to have a car, thus you choose to pay those fees and taxes associated with owning a car. Because you choose to pay for a car does not mean you get to say it is paying for your bicycle use.<br /><br /><i>secondly, a lot of funding for the road and highway system comes from other sources that everyone pays into.</i><br /><br />I'd like to see your list of "a lot" of taxes and fees a person whose sole transportation is a bicycle pays to have the road and highway system. Also, what percentage of overall funding does these fees bring to the table?Ralphhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935553689879498648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3471471289744825428.post-76757016099491208672010-05-03T18:22:57.821-07:002010-05-03T18:22:57.821-07:00In the next-to-last paragraph, you say we should a...In the next-to-last paragraph, you say we should and do subsidize bike riding.<br /><br />Unfortunately, you're going along with the myth that bicyclists are freeloaders who take up space on roads paid for by gas taxes. There are (at least) two things wrong with that viewpoint. Firstly, most bicyclists also have cars and pay those road-related taxes and fees; secondly, a lot of funding for the road and highway system comes from other sources that everyone pays into.<br /><br />If anything, bicycle infrastructure is underfunded, not subsidized.Bill Nighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09202318621724165312noreply@blogger.com